DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED FROM PAGE 1:
Q. Now, at the time that you were working as a teamster
foreman at that Gimbels site that we saw in the photo, August
of 1989, were you asked to participate in another murder for
the Gambino family?
A. Yes.
Q. And who asked for your help?
A. John Gotti, Sr.
Q. Okay. Who came to you directly with John Gotti, Sr.'s
wishes?
A. Fella named [Deleted]... I was in a club with Fat Downs
Club in Staten Island with [Deleted] and the rest of our crew.
[Deleted] came and asked for [three of us] to step outside;
he had something to tell us. And then he proceeded to tell us
that, coming from the boss, John, we had to do a piece of work.
Q. And, again, what did you understand that to mean?
A. Kill somebody.
Q. At that time, did [Deleted] identify who the intended
victim was?
A. Yes, Fred Weiss.
...
Q. And did he explain why Gotti, Sr. wanted to see Fred Weiss
dead?
A. Yes. It was -- he was involved with the garbage industry
in Staten Island... was big in the private sanitation business.
And they had just been indicted, or was going to get indicted
in a case. And they thought that Fred would cooperate, and
that is why they wanted to have him murdered.
Q. And at the time that Fred Weiss was indicted with these
others, what was the relationship between the garbage industry
and the Gambino family?
A. Oh, they were with us; the Trade Waste Association.
...
Q. Did you actually end up playing a role in the murder of
Fred Weiss?
A. Leading up to his murder; yes.
Q. Okay. What did -- what did you do, at least to contribute
to the conspiracy to murder Fred Weiss?
A. Well, I was instructed after that night to get together
with [Deleted], which I did, in his club at some days later.
And we went out and started to dig a hole.
Q. For what?
A. To put a body. Of Fred Weiss after he would be murdered.
And to do some homework to follow him around, get his routine
down, and find the right moment to execute him.
Q. And did you do anything else in furtherance of this
conspiracy?
A. Yes. At a later time, we went by an individual's -- from
New Jersey, who was a soldier with the DeCavalcantes over to
his house where he would be brought there to be murdered.
Q. When who would be brought there?
A. Excuse me. Fred Weiss.
...
Q. [Deleted] had a weapon with him at the time?
A. Yes. He had a silencer and a handgun.
Q. Did you see it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did Fred Weiss end up getting killed that day?
Sammy went to John saying Louie was talking about him behind his back, which was a lie. John approved his murder, and they killed him.A. No, he did not. He didn't show up.
Q. Do you know what ultimately became of Fred Weiss?
A. I would say he was murdered within a few days or that week.
Q. Were you anywhere near the crime scene when Fred Weiss was
killed?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any idea who killed him?
A. We found out later it was the Jersey family who killed him.
Q. Still, even though you weren't there that day and he was
killed by a different family, to your mind, what makes you
guilty of the murder of Fred Weiss?
A. I was part of the conspiracy to kill Fred Weiss.
Q. Again from whom did that conspiracy to kill Fred Weiss
emanate?
A. That was from John Gotti, Sr.
Q. During the 1980s approximately how many times was John
Gotti, Sr. charged in a criminal case?
A. I believe it was three.
Q. Do you remember the results of all three of those criminal
cases?
A. Yes, he was acquitted.
Q. Each time?
A. Each time.
Q. Do you recall celebrating those acquittals with John Gotti,
Sr.?
A. Yes.
Q. Where would you typically have those celebrations?
A. Usually at the club, the Ravenite.
Q. I am going to ask you to take a look at Government's
Exhibit 162... Do you recognize the location shown in that photo?
A. That's the Ravenite.
Q. Do you recognize the occasion that's depicted in that
photo?
A. Yes. That's his last case that he won.
MR. McGOVERN: We move 162, your Honor.
MR. CARNESI: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 162 received in evidence)
MR. McGOVERN: Would you pull 162 up on the screen,
please.
Q. Moving from left to right, can you tell us who you see in
that photo, identifying them by name and rank in the family, if
any, in 1989?
A. [Deleted] was a captain. John Gotti was the boss. I am a
soldier, right there.
Q. That's you behind John Gotti, Sr.'s left shoulder?
A. That is correct.
Gravano, he was the consigliere...
Q. OK. By late 1989, who was John Gotti, Sr.'s underboss?
A. Late '89?
Q. Late '89.
A. [Deleted], I believe.
...
Q. Essentially second in command?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was third in command?
A. Gravano.
Q. Can we bring up Government's Exhibit 35.
Again, is that Sammy Gravano?
A. That's correct.
Q. I now want to show you what's been marked for
identification as Government's Exhibits 452A and B together
with a transcript. I am going to first show you 452A and B,
which are CDs. I just ask you whether you recognize those, sir?
A. Yes, my initials are on them.
Q. What do you recognize them to be?
A. These are audiotapes from the Ravenite.
Q. What's the date shown on those audiotapes? Well, I can
point it out. December 12, 1989? Is that indicated at the top?
A. I don't know. Unless I missed it. Oh, yeah.
Q. December 12, 1989. Also handing you what's been marked for
identification as Government's Exhibit 452T, a transcript. Are
you familiar with that transcript, sir?
A. Yes, I've seen it before.
Q. Have you listened to these audiotapes?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to initialling them?
A. Yes.
Q. As you listened to these, did you follow along in the
transcript?
A. Yes.
Q. As you listened, did you find the transcript to be a fair
and accurate rendition of what we're hearing on the CDs?
A. Yes.
Q. By the way, from time to time did you note some typos on
the transcript?
A. Yes, I think I did.
MR. McGOVERN: Your Honor, we offer 452A and B
together with the transcript as an aid to the jury, 452T?
MR. CARNESI: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. The exhibits are received.
(Government's Exhibits 452A and B received in
evidence)
THE COURT: Are you going to be distributing the
transcript now?
MR. McGOVERN: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Then I will explain to the
jury that a transcript is not evidence in itself. The evidence
is the actual recording. The transcript may be used solely as
an aid, but the evidence is what you hear on the tape.
MR. KIM: Your Honor, we will also be playing the
audio. We have headphones. It will come out of the over the
speaker, but if a particular juror wants to use the headphones,
it will come out of the headphones as well.
...
Q. Mr. DiLeonardo, just directing your attention to 452T, the
transcript in evidence as an aid, do you see the date December
12, 1989?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you see the participants, John Gotti and [Deleted]?
A. Yes.
Q. One more time, to remind us: What are their respective
positions in the Gambino family at the time this conversation
is recorded?
A. John was the boss and [Deleted] is acting underboss.
THE COURT: This is John Gotti, Sr.?
THE WITNESS: John Gotti, Sr., yes.
THE COURT: OK.
MR. McGOVERN: I believe with that, your Honor, we may
begin.
THE COURT: So it begins at the beginning?
MR. McGOVERN: It yes, it does begin with Gotti,
"Today I go and have lunch."
THE COURT: OK.
(Audio played)
...
THE COURT: That is the portion you wanted played?
MR. McGOVERN: Yes, that is all of it, Judge. We're
done with that part, through page 32 of the transcript. And I
just wanted to let everyone know that after the lunch break,
we're going to go back over the transcript and clear up some of
these items with the witness.
THE COURT: Very good. We'll start the lunch recess
now. I understand the lunch has almost arrived. Everybody
else is in place. Let's break now at 12:15, and return at
1:15. We'll reconvene at 1:15.
(Jury Excused)
(Witness temporarily excused)
THE COURT: All right, 1:15.
MR. McGOVERN: Thank you.
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: Just before we get started, I should tell
you three or four of the jurors spoke to my deputy clerk and
said that he can't hear that tape, they're not hearing it. At
all...
MR. McGOVERN: We do intend to play portions again
through another witness. And, of course, try to turn up the
volume again at that time.
THE COURT: And maybe we can make sure that the four
who raised it, try it with the earphones and make sure they
have four working earphones.
MR. KIM: What I noticed about the earphones were that
the background noise is part of the -- the fact of what
happened in the room, not -- the earphones don't make that it
much easier. I think what might make it easier when we do
smaller portions, it is easier to follow along with the
transcript and catch the words, because you know exactly where
you are as opposed to a long 25 minutes.
...
Q. Mr. DiLeonardo, can you get the transcript 452 T in front
of you again?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And I'm just going to ask you to help us interpret
just a handful of the -- the phrases and portions of
conversation that were on the tape.
Starting with page one of the transcript and beginning
...four lines down: As far as this life, no one knows it
better than me. If a guy offends me, I'll break him. That is
the end of it. But not for me. It is this thing of ours. It
has gotten to be a circus. I'm not gonna leave a circus when I
go to jail, [Deleted].
Couple of questions --
THE COURT: Well, well, to tell the jury. Now, Mr.
McGovern is a very polite fellow. And he just left out a word.
We'll call it in brackets. He just has trouble saying it. But
it was there, you've probably heard it. I'll let him skip it,
since he is not comfortable.
MR. McGOVERN: Only in court, Judge.
THE COURT: Oh no, I would have said that it would be
only in court that you would read such a word. But, in any
event, we'll let you skip it each time.
Okay, go ahead.
MR. McGOVERN: Thank you, Judge.
Q. First of all, when he says "as far as this life" do you
have an understanding "this life"?
A. Cosa Nostra.
Q. When he says, "If a guy offends me, I'll break him." What
does it mean to "break" someone?
A. Take him down from their position. If they're a captain to
soldier, or even in hierarchy, could break him down to soldier
or nonentity.
Q. Are you familiar with the term "to shelf".
A. Yes, same thing as breaking somebody. Make him a
nonentity; disenfranchise him.
Q. Disenfranchise?
A. Yes.
Q. And he -- couple more lines down, he says "this thing of
ours". Again, what does that mean?
A. Our "thing", that is Cosa Nostra.
Q. Turning over to page 2, about nine lines down from the top,
do you see this entry: When DB got whacked, they told me a
story. I was in jail when I whacked him.
First of all, let plea stop there. Who is "DB"?
A. DB was a captain in our family, in charge of the local 282
in the porno district.
Q. And what became of the DB?
A. He got killed.
...
Q. Same thing as "whacked"?
A. Whacked is murdered.
Q. And do you know who was responsible for whacking DB?
A. Gravano and [Deleted].
Q. On whose orders?
A. Gotti, Sr.
THE COURT: How do you know that; not in this
transcript, right?
THE WITNESS: No, I know it from the street.
THE COURT: You know it from the street?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
Q. Well, to be clear, from inside your family?
A. Yes.
...
Q. Who in particular did you speak to about the murder of
Robert DiBernardo?
A. Gravano at times, ...other members.
Q. You say Gravano was one of the participants in the murder?
A. Yes.
Q. And for what purpose was Sammy Gravano telling you about
the murder of Robert DiBernardo?
A. He took over local 282. It became his after that.
Q. And was it important for you, as a member of the family, to
understand how Sammy came to control local 282?
A. That is how Sammy did things; he killed you and took it.
Q. Moving down a few lines, John Gotti, Sr. says: I knew why
it was being done, I done it anyway. I allowed it to be done.
He got there, I saved that whole industry.
Do you know what he is referring to?
A. Yes. He knows it was a story Sammy was telling him that DB
was not knocking John behind his back, that is the story they
went in with, I believe, and that Sammy just wanted to take
control of the union. [Deleted] had owed some money to
DB, a hundred thousand dollars, and that was his motivation,
part and parcel.
Q. And when he says "the whole industry" he is referring to
what industry?
A. Construction industry; concrete, specific.
...
Q. Further down that page, about five lines down from there
where Gotti says: I sat with the owner of the building today,
they don't know who Sammy is, and they don't know who Marathon
is.
Do you have an understanding of what "Marathon" was?
A. That was Gravano's company; one of his companies.
Q. What kind of company?
A. That was a concrete company, I believe, Marathon.
Q. And, continuing, it says: They knew Marine and them way
before that. They were told this is where I want it to go, so
it went to Marathon...
What is Marine?
A. That was a company that was controlled by the Irish guys
Westies faction of our family.
Q. W-e-s-t-i-e-s?
A. Yes...
Q. This Irish faction, what is the problem they're having here
with Marathon, Sammy's company?
A. Yes. Sammy looks like he robbed the job from him, took a
job right out from under [Deleted] who was one of the Irish
guys.
Q. At the bottom of the page, Gotti says: Every time I turn
around there is a new company popping up. Building,
consulting, concrete. And every time we got a partner that
don't agree with us, we kill him. You go to the boss, and your
boss kills him.
A. He is referring again, once again, to Gravano being
completely aggressive and trying to take over the industry
under John's nose, and everybody else's nose. And when he
didn't like where it was going, he killed the guy. He went to
John, John gave permission, and he had him killed.
Salvatore Gravano |
Q. Over to page 4 where, four lines from the top Gotti says:
What do I do with the rest of the Borgatta. What does that
term mean?
A. "Borgatta" means family.
Q. And he says: You throw them in the street, the rest of the
Borgatta. What are we gonna do with the rest of this Borgatta;
25 capodecinas, we got 22, 25 beef to me.
Do you understand what he is referring to?
A. Yes. We got 25 crews in our family and Sammy seems to be
trying to control everything at this point. And everybody is
going to John complaining about Sammy's aggressiveness.
Q. Over to page 6, please, about seven lines from the top,
where Gotti, Sr. again says: When Nasabeak died you were
nothing. Louie had Gem Steel. You told me that guy was
talking behind my back, talk behind my back, now you got Gem
Steel.
First of all, do you have an understanding of who
"Nasabeak" is, what that reference is?
A. Yes. That is Paul Castellano.
Q. When Gotti says when Nasabeak died, what is he referring
to?
A. Well, Paul Castellano was murdered at that point in time.
Q. By whom?
A. Guy Gotti and Gravano and [Deleted].
Q. And he says: Louie had Gem Steel, now you got Gem Steel.
First of all, who I Louie?
A. That would be Louie Milito who used the be Gravano's
partner for years, they were very, very close at one time. And
Gravano was not partners with Milito in Gem Steel, that was his
exclusively. And Sammy went to John saying Louie was talking
about him behind his back, which was a lie. John approved his
murder, and they killed him.
Q. And after Gravano and others killed Milito, what became of
Gem Steel?
A. Sammy took it over.
Q. And what kind of company was it?
A. Steel erectors.
...
Q. Over to page 7, about six lines from the top, it says,
Gotti says: These people are being taken away from him. He is
not a capodecina, he wants to be a capodecina, I'll take him
down from consigliere, and I'll make him a capodecina.
Could you interpret that for us?
A. Yes. Capodecina's role is to handle your crew and
different aspects of the family, like construction industry or
trade waste, things of that nature. When you get into the
hierarchy, boss, underboss, consigliere, you're supposed to
oversee your captains with those industries. Here, Sammy is
directly hands-on and John is being sarcastic saying, and
rightfully so, this is what he wants, to act like a captain?
I'll make him a captain.
...
Q. Three lines down: I want to know when and how they got in
them, these are all businesses that nobody had a year ago.
[Deleted] on my back? I got a million good guys.
What does it mean "I got a million good guys"?
A. Associates and soldiers and captains that he could use to
put in these industries and he could use this is people instead
of Gravano using everybody he knows.
Q. And the next line reads: My son didn't open no new
companies up, my brother didn't, my son-in-laws didn't, nobody
opened up no new companies up.
...What is he complaining about there?
A. Well, he is saying that I'm not bringing this all to me,
I'm the boss, I could hog it all myself and I'm not doing it.
I could give it to my immediate family and let them earn that
kind of living, but he don't want to set that kind of precedent
to the rest of the family. And he's making a comparison hat
Sammy don't care, he is running right through everything.
Q. In what sense was Sammy Gravano, by opening up his own
companies, making more than anyone else?
A. In a sense, was he making more than everyone else?
Q. Yes?
A. He controlled everyone, controlling everybody in every
industry in the Borgatta that we controlled and letting
everybody come to him.
Q. And over to page 17. At the very bottom where Gotti
complains or says: Who is going to challenge me, who is going
to defy me? What are you going to do, take a shot, sleeping
like I did to the other guy.
Do you have an understanding as to who is he referring
to there?
A. Yes. That was the overthrow of Paul Castellano. And
ultimately murder of Paul. Paul went to sleep in his eyes
because John had circumvented his power with a lot of the
skippers. And Paul essentially went to sleep, they called
that. He was not aware of his surroundings and that was abled
him to sneak up and kill him that easily.
Q. And on the bottom of page 20, about 12 lines from to top:
I meet this, [Deleted].
Is that to same [Deleted] you mentioned before, was
with the Westies?
A. That's correct.
Q. The guy's the nicest guy in the world. He is giving that
punk 10,000 a month in jail with [Deleted].
Who is [Deleted]?
A. He was the head of the Westies at one time, Hell's Kitchen.
And it was a murderous group. And he went to jail... with
some others.
...
Q. Was [Deleted] still the underboss by April of '90?
A. No. He was consigliere. Sammy became underboss in '90.
Q. He and Gravano had switched positions by that time?
...
Q. Now, what happened to John Gotti, Sr. in December of 1990
just a month or so after he promoted [Deleted] to official
captain?
A. He was arrested.
Q. Was he arrested alone or with others?
A. With others.
Q. Who?
A. [Deleted], Sam Gravano, [Deleted].
Q. And did Gotti, [Deleted] and Gravano attempt to make bail?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they successful?
A. No.
Q. So at that point in time is it fair to say that the entire
administration of the Gambino family was incarcerated?
A. That's correct.
Q. Was anyone put in charge of running the Gambino family now
that Gotti Gravano and [Deleted] were off the street?
A. Yes. John, Sr. put together a committee to handle the
street functions.
...
Q. By the time Gotti, Sr. formed this ruling committee with
these five individuals, what rank did each of the five of them
hold?
A. They were all captains.
...
Q. I want to show you Government's Exhibit 301 on the
screen. First of all, do you recognize this document?
A. I have seen it before.
Q. OK. What do you recognize it to be?
A. That was a list that went around from the Bonanno people.
Q. How do you know it's a Bonanno family list?
A. I recognize some of the names.
...
Q. Do you see the two entries at the bottom where it said
Bobby Bad Heart, 5/89, and Albert Chico, 5/86?
A. Yes. This is done through attrition. So those would be
the deaths, the people who died, and then they are replaced
with the fresh bodies.
Q. So you take the dates 5/89 and 5/86 as the time of death of
the two members at bottom the bottom?
A. Yes.
Q. The two at the top are being proposed as replacements?
A. That's correct.
Q. There any rule in Cosa Nostra about how large the
membership rolls can be?
A. Yes. Every family has a ceiling on how far their family
could grow. When you get to your number, you have to wait for
somebody to die to replace that number.
Q. Just to be clear, what kind of list do you recognize this
to be?
A. That's a promotion list.
Q. In your time as a member and later a captain in the Gambino
family, did you actually see and review lists of this sort?
A. Seen, reviewed and approved.
Q. What's the purpose of having members approve a list?
A. It goes to all the families. First it starts internally,
if you want to straighten out a guy in your family, everybody
reviews it. It goes to the captains, to the soldiers. They
review it, if they have any beefs or this guy did something
wrong in his lifetime that people should know about it before
they are brought into our life. Then it is brought over to the
other families, and they are distributed with those captains
and the same procedure. If anybody has got a beef, they have
the right to come up front and confront them.
Q. Can we see Government's Exhibit 302.
Do you recognize this list?
A. Yes, that's a Luchese list.
...
Q. Do you see the X mark next to the name [Deleted]?
A. Yes. That was put there because that was we knocked him
down. Our family knocked down the Luchese proposal. We were
making a claim that he was with us and that they had no right
to straighten him out.
Q. To your knowledge did [Deleted] end up getting
straightened out, or inducted?
A. After some years and some haggling, yes, he did get
straightened out. We released him.
Q. Again, at the bottom of the list you see several names
about seven names and dates on the far right-hand side.
What do those represent?
A. Those would be the deaths.
MR. McGOVERN: Can we see Government's Exhibit 304,
please.
What do you recognize this to be?
A. That would be Lucheses again.
...
Q. Do you see that, each of these entries on the left-hand
side and right is Mrs. and Mrs.
Do you have an understanding as to why that's written
that way?
A. Whoever put the list together, if they got caught with it
by law enforcement or it got picked up somewhere, they would
think it would be some kind of invitation. But it wasn't. It
was a promotion list.
Q. Just to be clear, are women allowed to be inducted into
Mafia families?
A. No.
MR. McGOVERN: Can we see 305, please.
Q. Do you recognize this list?
A. That's a Bonanno list.
Q. Bonanno family?
A. Bonanno family. Excuse me.
Q. How do you reach that conclusion?
A. Bobby Lino. I knew Bobby Lino. He died. He was a soldier
there.
Q. Do you recall when he died?
A. According to that list, '89.
Q. The next exhibit I believe is 306.
Do you recognize this list?
A. No.
Q. OK. Let's see. 307.
Do you recognize this one?
A. That might be a Jersey list. No. That's the West Side...
Q. When you say West Side, what are you referring to?
A. The Genovese family...
Q. We will get to the names in a second.
How did the Genovese family come to be called the West
Side?
A. The Chin operated out of the West Side of Manhattan, lower
Manhattan.
Vincent Gigante |
Q. Who is the chin?
A. Vinnie Gigante.
...
Q. Do you see the entry at the bottom Nino Piazza '91?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you interpret that to mean?
A. That's definitely the day he died, like all those numbers
are the days they died.
Q. OK. The year?
A. The year, yes. The year. Excuse me.
Q. Remind us, where was John Gotti, Sr. in 1991?
A. MCC I think.
Q. Jail?
A. In jail.
Q. He had been there since December of 1990?
A. Right.
Q. Can we see 308, please.
Do you recognize this list?
A. Luchese family again.
...
Q. Again, at the top it says new, and on the left and on the
right it says old.
What do you take that to mean?
A. Old would be the year of the deaths, again, when they died.
And the new was the new guys coming in.
...
Q. What happened to Bobby Boriello on April 13 of '91?
A. He was murdered.
Frank DeCicco |
Q. Did you find that date significant at the time?
A. Yes. Frank DeCicco five years prior was murdered on the
same day, April 13.
Q. That's the Frank DeCicco you told us earlier who was blown
up in his car outside of Veterans and Friends?
A. That's correct.
Q. When you realized that Bobby Boriello was murdered five
years to the day, what did that mean to you?
A. We had a problem. Somebody was coming after us, murdering
our guys.
...
Q. What was your reaction, your personal reaction to the
murder of Bobby Boriello?
A. I was devastated by it. I was sick. Bobby was a good guy.
Q. Did you discuss the murder of Bobby Boriello directly with
[Deleted]?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his reaction?
A. He was devastated also. He was sick.
Q. How close were he and Bobby?
A. Extremely close.
Q. To your knowledge, did [Deleted] make any attempt to
avenge Bobby Boriello's murder?
A. Yes.
Q. What in particular did he do?
A. He set up a meeting with the West Side, the Genovese
family, and went there to ask for somebody's, an individual's
life.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I drove [Deleted] to the appointment.
...
Q. Before we get into what happens at that meeting, did you
speak to [Deleted] after it?
A. Yes.
Q. After the meeting concluded?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that how you came by your knowledge of what transpired
at meeting?
A. Well, I knew what he was going to say when he went there
also.
Q. He shared that with you?
A. Sure.
Q. What did he tell you on the way to the sitdown?
A. Well, it wasn't in the car. It was prior to going there.
That he was going to ask for this guy's life.
Q. OK. Explain to us now the context as to why [Deleted]
would be asking for the life of Preston Geritano?
A. There was a prior agreement between John [Gotti], Sr. and the
West Side. Like I said, Bobby and Preston were having some troubles
with each other, and very tough individuals and very capable of
murder. The arrangement was if anything happened to Bobby
Boriello that the West Side would kill Geritano.
Q. And you say you drove [Deleted] to this meeting with
the West Side and then spoke to him afterwards --
We had a problem. Somebody was coming after us, murdering our guys.A. Right.
Q. What did you learn from [Deleted] after the meeting?
A. He demanded that Geritano be killed.
Q. And according to [Deleted] how was that demand received
by the Genovese family?
A. They said OK.
Q. At that point in time, what authority did [Deleted]
have to be demanding the life of a Genovese family soldier?
A. Well, he had full authority. He was on the committee.
That gave him the authority to go there and do that. That was
sort of how they were administrated.
Q. Did [Deleted] tell you what would happen to Preston
Geritano if the Genovese family did not make good on its
promise to kill him?
A. That we were going to stink him.
Q. Meaning what?
A. We were going to kill him.
Q. To your knowledge, did the Genovese family actually carry
out that request and actually murder Preston Geritano?
A. No.
Q. What was [Deleted] reaction to that...?
A. He was very upset about it, as everybody else was.
Q. Did he give anyone else permission to kill Preston
Geritano?
A. Yes...
Q. To your knowledge, was Preston Geritano ultimately killed?
A. Yes. But not from us.
...
Q. Do you recognize the individuals in Government's Exhibit
122A?
A. Yes. That's Joe Arcuri, an old timer, with us. He was a
captain...
Q. When you say Joe Arcuri is an old timer, how far back does
his membership in the Gambino family date?
A. Turn of the century also. His father was also a wise guy.
Q. In this photo approximately how old is Joe Arcuri?
A. He's got to be in his 70s there.
...
Q. I want to direct your attention now to late 1991, around
November of 1991. Were John Gotti, Sr., [Deleted] and
Gravano still in jail awaiting trial in their federal case?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you receive any information in November '91 about Sammy
Gravano?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What was that?
A. He cooperated.
Q. What was the reaction within your Mafia family?
A. Panic.
Q. How so?
A. Sammy knew everything about everybody. He would send a lot
of people to jail.
Q. After word hit the street that Sammy Gravano was now
cooperating with the government, was anyone else put in charge
of all the labor unions and the construction contractors that
you previously said Gravano was handling for the Gambino
family?
A. Yes. They gave that to me.
Q. Who gave it to you?
A. John [Gotti], Sr.
...
Q. Just in the most basic terms, what did it mean to you now
to be in charge of the family's construction rackets?
A. It was going to come with a lot of heat at that time. My
first reaction was Sammy knew everything. Now I am going to go
meet with all these contractors. We've got a lot of exposure.
On the second hand, the benefit was I was going to make a lot
of money in the future.
...
Q. After you took charge of the construction rackets for the
family, did your position in the family change?
A. Yes. I became an acting captain.
Q. Who promoted you?
A. [John Gotti] Senior.
...
Q. Did John Gotti, Sr. ultimately go to trial in his federal
case?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall approximately when that trial began?
A. '92, the spring of '92 I believe.
Q. Did you attend the trial?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. It was too high profile. I stayed away. A lot of heat...
...
Q. Did Gravano end up testifying against Gotti, Sr. during
this trial?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What was the result of the trial?
A. He was convicted.
Q. Do you recall in particular what he was convicted of?
A. Murder, racketeering, Paul Castellano's murder.
Q. Do you remember approximately when it was that the jury
returned that verdict?
A. I would say around April of '92.
Q. What was your personal reaction to the conviction of John
Gotti, Sr.?
A. Very angry, angry and troubled. He was going to die in
jail now. I liked John.
...
Q. Do you recall there being a lot of press coverage at the
time that John Gotti, Sr. was on trial and ultimately
convicted?
A. It was on every channel everywhere.
Q. Was the press coverage favorable to the Gottis?
A. No, all negative.
...
Q. Did you attend the sentencing of John Gotti, Sr. in June of
1992?
A. Yes.
Q. And where was it held?
A. Brooklyn Federal Court.
...
Q. And when you got there, did you go inside?
A. No.
Q. Where did you stand?
A. We were outside. There was a park right outside of the
street from the federal building there.
Q. And as you stood outside the courthouse that day with [Deleted]
did you come to learn what sentence had been imposed on Gotti, Sr.?
A. Yes. He got life.
Q. Now, did there come a time, shortly after Gotti Sr. was
sentenced to life in prison, that you received yet another
promotion in the Gambino family?
A. Yes. I, around sometime into, or maybe '93, I became an
official captain.
...
Q. Did [Deleted] ever offer you a higher position in the
Gambino family than that of official captain?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that?
A. He wanted me to be on the committee, be up front on the
committee and help out run the family.
...
Q. And did you accept [Deleted] position, offer of a
position on the ruling committee of the family?
A. No. I figured it was best to turn it down, for several
reasons. One, I was young. There was a lot of oldtimers out
there. I advised [Deleted] it would be a bad precedent to put me up
there, being everybody knows how close we are, leave the
oldtimers up front and, you know, I could escape some law
enforcement scrutiny at that level. It gets around right away,
law enforcement finds out I got a promotion, I would got a lot
of heat. It wouldn't be good for the both of us.
Q. Even though you turned down that position on the committee
as official captain, did you continue to manage the family's
construction records throughout '93 and thereafter?
A. Yes.
Q. And, again, what did that mean to you on a day-to-day
basis?
A. I was in charge of this, and I had to bring in the money.
Q. And when you say "the money," what kind of money are we
talking about?
A. Construction extortion of the concrete companies and
contractors.
Q. Is there another term in the trade for construction
extortion money?
A. Yes, I called it "mob tax". It is a tax. Being like we
are our own government, a tax. The government taxes, we tax;
we tax everyone. So, mob tax.
Q. Did companies ordinarily pay this mob tax?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. And what happened when they didn't?
A. We give them a problem, or push it up.
Q. How so?
A. Put pressure on them in some way, and then threaten to hurt
them.
Q. Can you give us a particular example of the time when the
Gambino family actually resorted, or had to resort to the
threat of violence to get a construction contractor to pay?
A. Well, it was to get a job. Actually, it was the prison job
in Brooklyn. And we had a company that was bidding on it and
the GC of the job may have given it to somebody else.
Q. Let me break that down a little bit. You say it was a
prison job?
A. Yes. Federal prison holding center.
Q. The Metropolitan Detention Center?
A. That's correct; Brooklyn.
...
Q. Now, what do you do with all of the money, this mob tax
money that you were collected from construction companies,
labor unions, that the family controlled and extorted?
A. Tax, took out our end that we were designated to take;
anything with unions or concrete, we took out one third and
two-thirds would go into the family. And any job that we got
later on that had nothing to do with union or concrete, [Deleted]
and I would take out 50 percent and turn in 50 percent.
...
Q. When you say "money" are you talking cash or checks?
A. Cash. At that point.
Q. Are you -- well, after you were put in charge, now, of
running the construction rackets, did you become aware of
certain extortionate relationships that individuals in the
family had with contractors that they had not put on record
with the Gambino family, and the Gambino family didn't know
about?
A. Yes. There were many side deals going on in our family,
and in other families; yes, there was.
Q. What does that mean for there to be a "side deal." How was
that bad for the family?
A. Well, these guys would operate on their own. If -- if the
borgatta or family found out about it, then they would be
forced to give it in. Otherwise, they would keep the whole
thing themselves, whatever deal they made with the other
families, the other members. So there was a lot of sneaky
stuff going on, and we were trying to pull it together.
Q. What does it mean for the administration of the family if
money isn't turned in?
A. That is the way the machine works. That is how they eat;
associates, the soldiers, the captains, right on up. That's
how we got to eat. All of those industries, unions, and
everything belonged to the family. It is not any one
individual. We can put somebody there to get a job, delegate a
president of a union or whatever, but that all belongs to the
family no individual basis on it.
Q. And do you recall learning of a specific off-record deal
involving a company called Big Apple?
A. Yes.
Q. And remind us, what was Big Apple?
A. They were a demolition company.
Q. Is that the same demolition company you spoke of earlier
that was involved in that Gimbels construction site that we saw
in those photos...?
A. That's correct.
Q. And prior to Gravano's arrest and decision to cooperate,
who was handling Big Apple for the family?
A. Sammy Gravano.
...
...
Q. After this incident with [Deleted], this
off-the-record deal that you had discovered, did you come up
with any ideas as to how to prevent such off-record deals in
the future?
A. Yes, I suggested to [Deleted], if it was okay with him, we start
a panel, construction committee or panel. Whereas, we would
have representatives from our family, exclusively, for
construction. Anybody had a construction deal, put a nail on
the wall anywhere, they had to come through the committee that
was appointed. And then I suggested that I would like to bring
it around to the other families, and see if they were okay with
it. Because we'd be able to control all of these sneaky deals.
I mean and then everybody would come into it, acknowledge it,
and then if somebody had a sneaky deal, each family wouldn't
acknowledge it, they get nothing, and then we take the deal
over.
Q. You say you brought this idea to [Deleted]. What was
his reaction?
A. He loved it.
Q. And what about the other families, did you go about seeing
what they thought?
...
A. They liked it also.
Q. So after the five families unanimously agreed that this was
a good idea, was such a construction panel created within your
family?
A. Yes.
...
Q. And, until your arrest in June of 2002, who was at all
times the head of this construction panel within the family?
A. Me.
...
MR. McGOVERN: Your Honor, we move at this time
government's exhibit 700, a surveillance videotape of April 6,
1994.
THE COURT: I assume there is no objection.
MR. CARNESI: No, your Honor.
...
Q. And Mr. DiLeonardo, I'm directing your attention to the
screen. And, before we begin, let me ask you, have you had an
opportunity to review the video prior to your testimony here
today?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And just from this still that we have at one minute
three seconds, can you identify the location of this video?
A. Yes. That is Foxwoods Casino, in Connecticut.
Q. Foxwoods?
A. Foxwoods.
...
Q. How did the three of you come to be at Foxwoods Casino in
April of 1994?
A. [Deleted] had a meeting with [Deleted] and some of the
individuals to discuss some of the Connecticut rackets. And there
was a fight going on up there... And [Deleted] liked the
fights, and got tickets and a hotel for us...
...
Q. And the Connecticut rackets, were what?
A. Anything we had going on up there; shylock, bookmaking,
anything that was going on...
Q. And do you recall what the issue was involving the
Connecticut rackets?
A. No, I don't remember the specifics, but it was about the
rackets.
Q. Okay. And then the other things going on at Foxwood was a
professional boxing match...?
A. That's correct.
...
Q. Okay. And we have the three, of you in the corner. Is
there any reason that you are in that particular location?
A. Yes, there was a lot of cameras in there, and I wanted to
put us in a -- in a corner where the public wouldn't be able
the hear so well. We was in the corner. And I thought it was
pretty safe...
Q. Any reason you're standing?
A. Yes. We were just standing up. Like I said, it was just
a -- security reasons.
Q. Okay. Were there other members and associates of the
family that were on this trip with you?
A. Yes, there were several.
...
Q. And how did you know that there was actually a camera on
you?
A. Oh, there was cameras all over. And, for some reason, I
had a feeling we were being watched a little more closely when
we first got there.
...
Q. Is there any particular reason why you were not including
[Deleted] in your conversation at this point in time?
A. Yeah, there was a little suspect that he may have been a
cooperator. We had seen some material in a 302 that might have
alluded to him. But [Deleted] was vouching for him, and so it
became, really, a non-issue. But he would never be included,
he is only an associate anyway.
THE COURT: You used the phrase "302." Could you tell
the jury what you're talking about?
THE WITNESS: It is an FBI affidavit that is written
up when a cooperator sits down and speaks with -- debriefing.
THE COURT: You saw a 302? You saw FBI reports?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
THE COURT: Do you know how you got those?
THE WITNESS: They usually are passed out from lawyers
to -- to, you know, on the street.
...
Q. Did there come a time after you were running this
construction panel for to Gambino family, that you opened your
own company?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the name of that company?
A. Metropolitan Stone.
Q. And what kind of stone was that?
A. It was an aggregate business; stone. Road stone, concrete
stone. It was stones.
Q. Okay.
A. Road stone --
...
Q. Was it a legitimate, or illegitimate company?
A. Illegitimate.
Q. Why illegitimate?
A. Anything I touch is illegitimate.
Q. Why?
A. Because I am in the mob. And anything I do facilitates
my -- I'm there to make money for me, and the family, and,
everything we do is illegitimate.
...
Q. I want to pull up on the screen government's exhibit 314.
This is previously admitted into evidence. But let me ask you,
do you see the date, April 7, 1995? And, three, lines down,
the entry Mike, with the phone number, and the word
Metropolitan. Do you recognize that entry?
A. That is my business number.
...
Q. And that is the business number of what business?
A. Metropolitan Stone.
Q. And you see 315 A in evidence. Do you recognize what is
written on this document?
A. Same number. Metropolitan Stone on the top.
Q. And the entry Mikey Scar?
A. Me.
Q. 315 B?
A. That's my beeper number at that time.
Q. And 317?
A. That's, again, same number; my handwriting.
Q. Okay. That is your handwriting?
A. That looks like mine; yeah.
Q. After you opened this company, Metropolitan Stone, did
there come a time that you were asked to do business with a
company that was already on record with the Gambino family?
A. Yes.
...
Q. The DiThomasso's, who were they?
Was it a legitimate, or illegitimate company?
Illegitimate.
Why illegitimate?
Anything I touch is illegitimate.A. ...They were a big outfit. They were doing a landfill job in
Staten Island, covering the garbage.
...
Q. You said there came a time that Joe Watts brought you a
proposition involving Interstate and DiThomasso's. What was
that?
A. Yes. When they started this job in Staten Island landfill,
it was a massive job, and the need for teamster foremen to be
put on that job. And he came to me and said that DiThomasso's
wanted to know if they could keep the teamster foreman off the
job for the length of the job, and they were willing to pay
hundred thousand dollars towards that.
Q. And why would it be to the DiThomasso's benefit to keep a
teamster foreman off their job?
A. Well, if they could get away with only paying a hundred
thousand dollars over the course of that job, which would have
been they would pay maybe half million dollars over the course
of time, depends on whether they had the contract, they could
save a lot of money and a pain in the neck on the job bothering
everything.
Q. So to keep the Teamster foreman off the job, they were
willing to pay $100,000 to whom?
A. To [Deleted], essentially us, the Gambino family.
Q. When [Deleted] came to you with this proposal, what did he
ask you to do?
A. He says I could get this hundred thousand dollars, see if
you could do the favor because I was handling 282 at the time.
Then him and I would whack it up, split it.
Q. What, in particular -- did he suggest that anyone else
would participate in that hundred thousand?
A. No. He said that it could stay between us.
Q. What, if anything, did he say about telling [Deleted]
about it?
A. Well, first I told him I couldn't do, that I would have to
tell [Deleted] and I would have to turn in the money.
Q. What was his reaction?
A. He got a little upset, a little panicked. He said, Do me a
favor. Don't mention this to [Deleted]. Keep it between us.
Q. What did you do?
A. No problem.
Q. You said no problem?
A. To him I said that, yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. I went back and told [Deleted].
...
Q. Once you had [Deleted] approval, what efforts did
you make through your control of 282 to keep the Teamster
foreman off the job?
A. Well, [Deleted] said it was just about impossible to keep the
Teamsters off the job in those days because there was a lot of
scrutiny. We had trustees in our union, in 282. So we would
try to keep them off partially, like put them on late in the
job or take them off early in the job towards the end of it so
we would try to work it out that way.
...
Q. Did you work out any particular arrangement with the
... company, Interstate, as to how that hundred thousand would be
funneled to you?
A. Yes. I wound up setting up something where, when we were
selling them stone and transferring the dirt to them, in our
bills I would make it reflect like 25 cents a ton on the stone
and/or dirt, 25 to 50 cents on each yard or ton and would make
up the difference of the hundred thousand -- the stone
hypothetically, let's say it cost $20 a ton, I would make it
$20.50 or $20.25 and then keep a record of that how much they
paid us, paid into that.
Q. So is it fair to say you were inflating your invoices to
... to mask the hundred thousand dollars that they were going to
pay out to you?
A. Yes. So it would look legitimate.
...
Q. Did you share any of that money with [Deleted]?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you work out any particular business arrangement with
him by which you could funnel those proceeds to him?
A. Yes... At the time when I was taking in all that landfill,
all the dirt, I needed a screener. That's where the dirt is put
on, by a machine into the screener, shakes all the dirt and put on
a truck and then send it to the DiTomassos in the landfill, clean
fill. I suggested to [Deleted], because I had located one on
Staten Island, that he buy it, the screener. It was about
$30,000, and that I would pay lease payments monthly to him for
the screener. That's how, the first step we set up.
Q. Did [Deleted] actually purchase that screener for $30,000?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. After he purchased the screener, did he lease it to you
according to plan?
A. Yes. I believe it was $6,000 or $6500 a month.
Q. All told, how much did you pay to [Deleted] in lease
payments for that screener that cost him $30,000?
A. For the lease it was about $185,000.
Q. OK. Were there any other pieces of equipment that were
involved?
A. Yes. As the money was coming in, I could have gave him
more, so I asked him to get me another piece of equipment so he
could bill me, have another bill. He said he had a broken
backhoe hanging around the yard. I said, well, ship it over to
me, and then bill me for it every month. I believe the billing
on that was about $4500 a month.
Q. When you say the backhoe was broken, what do you mean?
A. It didn't operate. It wasn't operable.
Q. So where did it sit?
A. It sat in my yard.
Q. Yet you paid $4500 a month in lease payments?
A. Yes. I didn't really need the piece of machinery. I just
needed to get him a check.
Q. All told, the screener and the broken backhoe together, how
much money in lease payments did you funnel from your company
to [Deleted]?
A. At the top I believe it was about $11,000 a month at the
most.
Q. That's the two payments coming together?
A. That's correct.
Q. Over time, what did that total up to?
A. Like I said, it was 185. And then later on I gave him
another hundred thousand.
Q. 285 total?
A. 285, yes.
Q. Was that $60,000 in extortion money that you got from
...keeping the Teamsters off the job funneled to [Deleted]
from your company to his?
A. Yes. That and other monies.
Q. What were the other monies?
A. [Deleted] had that Brooklyn job with the prison going
up. We sold him some stone. And some concrete deals that I
did with [Deleted], with billing I would make up a bill that didn't
exist for stone, like I sold him 500 yards of stone. He would
pay the bill, but that was his payment to us, his extortion
payment to us.
Q. All of these monies that you funneled to [Deleted]
company were in the form of checks?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you what's marked for identification as
Government's Exhibit 606.
Could you look at those documents, sir, and tell us
whether you recognize them?
A. I do.
Q. What are they?
A. These checks are from my company...
Q. What do those checks represent?
A. These are the extortion payments.
Q. OK. And are they disguised, as you say, as lease payments
for the screener and the backhoe?
A. Yes.
...
Q. Now, in addition to Interstate, that you were extorting,
approximately how many other construction companies were on
record with the Gambino family in the 1990s?
A. A couple of dozen.
Q. Are you familiar with the company called Scara-Mix?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of company was Scara-Mix?
A. Concrete pouring company.
Q. On record with Gambino family?
A. Yes.
...
Q. During the time you were on the construction panel, how
much was Scara-Mix paying monthly to the Gambino family?
A. $10,000.
Q. What, if anything, did Scara-Mix get in return?
A. Our protection and sort of an exclusive on Staten Island,
that we wouldn't allow any other companies to come over the
bridges either from Jersey or from Brooklyn to deliver
concrete. We chased them off.
...
Q. From the time that John Gotti, Sr. took over the Gambino
family in 1985 with the murder of Paul Castellano until the
date of your arrest, June 20, 2002, can you give the jury just
a ballpark figure of how much money the Gambino family extorted
from its control of the construction industry in New York?
A. Probably tens of millions.
Q. While you were head of the family's construction panel, did
you ever fail to kick up to the administration any of the
extortion proceeds that you collected for the family?
A. Yes. I held back over the years probably about $20,000.
Q. During that same time frame that you were on the panel,
approximately ten years, how much of that extortion money did
you place directly into [Deleted] hands?
A. I would say between a million and two million dollars.
Q. And each time you did that, did you tell him where it was
coming from?
A. Yes.
...
Q. Did you also share with [Deleted] over the years any
money that you and others extorted from companies outside the
construction industry?
A. Yes. The stock market.
Q. You mentioned the stock market. What interest did you have
on the stock market?
A. I had an individual around me ... who was involved in the
stock market. When he first started out, he brought in over
several months about $25,000 or more, a little bit more, but
$25,000 I gave to [Deleted].
Q. Just to be clear, what was [Deleted] doing with the stock
market?
A. He had a pump-and-dump operation on the market.
...
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Well, they would -- the calls would go out there to select
the stock, pump it up to the potential buyers out there, tell
them it was a great stock. When everybody bought into it, the
stock would go up, and then pull the rug out, sell the stock,
and those other people would be left with a loss.
...
Q. Now, did there come a time in early 1997 that you learned
about the murder of an individual with local 23?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was that?
A. Frank Parasole he was a foreman.
Q. And he was a foreman with local 23?
A. That's correct.
Q. Who was the first person to tell you that Frank Parasole
had been killed?
A. [Deleted].
Q. And when [Deleted] came to see you, what did he tell
you?
A. He said [Deleted], who was an associate of the
family... invited this Frank Parasole to a Super Bowl party
where he was beaten and then shot and, in turn, died.
Q. And what was your reaction to this news that a union
official had been shot to death?
A. Well, very upset.
Q. Why?
A. We know nothing about anything that was going on. We
didn't know there was any problems with this guy, which there
was no problems with him.
What happened, was [Deleted] was put to work by his uncle, had
asked for a favor to put this kid to work in the union. And he
was told he had to work. We gave him a job, he had to work,
stay on the job.
Well, I guess Frank Parasole had the audacity to tell
him he had to work, several times, because [Deleted] felt like
he didn't have to work, he had a right of entitlement, I guess.
And felt he was being embarrassed by Parasole. [Deleted] invites
him down to a club, Super Bowl Sunday... invites all of
his friends. Proceeds, as soon as the guy comes in, to give
him a severe beating. That ain't enough, he pulls out a gun
and shoots him shoots. Shoots him in his -- in his rear. And
the guy bleeds to death and dies.
...
Q. And so did there come a time, however, that others were
arrested for the Parasole murder?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. [Deleted] was arrested, and [Deleted].
...
Q. Were you ever, yourself, personally questioned by law
enforcement about the Parasole murder?
A. Yes, soon after.
Q. And how did that come about?
A. I went to eat with my first wife. And when I came out, I
got in the car, started to drive, I noticed a car behind me.
And it was law enforcement. And they pulled me over. It was
the state detectives... I got out of the car, I knew them
from the neighborhood. And some little talk, they says, what
happened with Parasole, in that nature and that form. Saying
that, you know, that is why they were on me, and they were
going to be looking at me for it, which I said I don't know
what you're talking about.
...
Q. Did there come a time later that same year, late '97, that
[Deleted] asked you to hold something for him?
A. Yes.
Q. And approximately when was this discussion?
A. I would say, middle to the end of '97.
Q. And where did this discussion take place.
A. Out in Queens.
...
Q. And what did, in that conversation, what did [Deleted] ask
you to hold for him?
A. Submachine guns.
Q. And what did you say to this request that you hold some
machine guns for him?
A. Sure.
Q. So what did you agree to do?
A. Be the custodian of them. I agreed to take them, and I
took them that night.
...
Q. And did that happen?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you supervise this transfer?
A. That was it... put them in our trunk, and then we left.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. Back to Brooklyn.
...
Q. And what was your reaction to the news from [Deleted]
that you might get arrested in his case?
A. Well, the first thing I did, was go home and clean out my
house.
Q. What did you clean out?
A. My money, my jewelry, whatever I had hanging around.
...
Q. And in addition to cleaning out your house, did you seek
advice of counsel at that time?
A. Yes...
Click here to go to Part One
Edited by:
Thomas P. Hunt
New Milford, CT
thunt@onewal.com
